And migrating and taking over territory is what human beings have done throughout history. The Celts taking over Britain from whoever was there before, the Angles and Saxons moving into Britain after the Romans left, the Franks taking over Gaul and changing it to France, the ethic Russians taking over Siberia after 1500 (same time period as the settlement of the Americas). And the Native American tribes themselves did not originate in the Americas--they migrated over from Siberia themselves, so long ago they had forgotten it.
Except for Antarctica, there is not a spot on the globe that has not changed hands multiple times. One illustration is the Mexican War which was a collision between 3 Empires (US, Mexico, Comancheria) with 3 more (Britain, France and Spain) lurking just offshore. Spain had controlled Mexico just 25 years before and France would do so 15 years in the future. The British as was their custom settled for financial control. The Comanches proved to be a more difficult opponent than the Mexicans with final suppression only coming after 30 years of conflict after the Mexican War was over.
No matter what old world people "discovered" the new - be it Africans, Moslems, Chinese, or Europeans - the natives of the new world were doomed by the old world diseases. No one intended it, and no one could have stopped it
Well, to steal a line from Hillary Clinton during a senate hearing, “what the hell does it matter” the bottomline is that no longer has any relevance to the present. Now I’m no Hillary fan by far, but the point is there is so much navel gazing over the past which leftists use to try to advance their agenda by imposing a false guilt as they do with slavery. They are so self righteous and sanctimonious as if they could have done better back then. That’s called presentism. I’m not going to let them rewrite history. I’m celebrating Columbus Day for all the good that it represents. Let’s face it, everyone who has ever existed has been a depraved wretch according to scripture. So, let’s do what is right today based on a transcendent moral code, not someone’s woke idealism. If you constantly live in the past you’re going to lose a future which we are on the verge of doing as the Left manipulate us into a dystopian hellscape.
Look I'm not arguing your views only saying Don't trust your government, the REAL TRUTH IS IN HISTORY AND THAT TRUTH SHOULD NEVER BE FORGOTEN. OTHERWISE WE ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT. Here in America we are facing Hitler all over again because folks refuse to believe the Holocaust ever happened.
Which is why we study it. Some historians use better sources than others. Some historians bring different perspectives to the same sources. We read as many of them as possible so that we can draw better and better conclusions, while also doing original research in the present (the article, for example, cites the use of LIDAR to discover lost cities no one knew existed).
This is, not coincidentally, the argument for the freedom of speech. Everyone writing or speaking about politics does so from a different perspective too. But not everyone is right, and not everyone who is right has the complete picture. This is precisely why government censorship is so utterly pernicious and must be opposed. The free market of ideas is far safer, however chaotic, than the stultifying hand of one inevitably corrupted point of view.
Cortes begged for peace and got it. He freed the oppressed tribes from Montezuma. Cortes couldn’t have conquered all of Mexico if Mexicans hadn’t supplied their armies to do it. The difference was, Cortes didn’t eat his prisoners…
Exactly. Cortes ended one of the most evil regimes in human history, to the great benefit of the vast majority of natives. The fact that many of those same people died later of European diseases is no more Cortes's fault than the Black Death is the fault of the Chinese.
Bernal Diaz Del Castillo vol. 1,2. An eye witness account of the conquest of Mexico. From all five voyages to the coast of Yucatán from Cuba to Mexico City. Absolutely stunning achievement. The courage it took. The diplomacy. Cortes destroyed their idols as condition one, even when it cost lives. Condition 2, forbid cannibalism. Bernal saw it all before his eyes.
A meticulously researched book about Columbus (author: Hinckley), researched in the archives in Barcelona, spells out the concern Columbus had for the native people he encountered. He tried mightily to stop other Europeans from abusing and enslaving the native population, but he was slandered in his own time by those persons, just as relentlessly as he is being slandered now.
Indeed. The Pope was also quick to (properly) resolve the issue of whether the Indians were humans or some other species and thus entitled (or not) to full human rights. No question, no one had the level of human rights that we do today, but the Pope quickly extended those to the discovered peoples. That may seem obvious to us, but the Spanish didn't have DNA testing or Wikipedia, and the Pope was a long way away.
Just a few decades later, another Pope strongly opposed the enslavement of native peoples in a Papal Bull, and the Spanish government adopted that as policy. The conquistadors did not always follow that policy, but government officials don't always follow the law today either.
The problem remains as stated in the article: before much time had passed at all, the Indians started dying en masse. No one understood why: they didn't have the germ theory of disease or any modern understanding of the immune system. But it wouldn't have mattered: there was nothing they could have done, and nothing they could have done to prevent it from happening, any more than the Chinese could have prevented Europeans from getting the Black Death. It's just one of the truly great tragedies of history.
I'm all for Columbus Day but...an Irish monk discovered what we call America a thousand years before him and Brendan wrote that he and his fellow brethren went where others had gone before.
I'm all for Columbus Day but...an Irish monk discovered what we call America a thousand years before him and Brendan wrote that he and his fellow brethren went where others had gone before.
There is some evidence that this may have happened (as the article says "at least once", which means there's no good evidence of more than once). But the bigger point is that this was something that happened (if it happened) in the 18th Century, which is to say, centuries after disease swept through the hemisphere.
Given the widespread cannibalism and human sacrifice custom in South America before Cortes, perhaps we should ask those asserting genocide, is that tradition the one you prefer? Culture is usually pre fixe, not a la carte.
Graves is also my 10th great-grandfather. Hello cousin!
Cool! Hello!
And migrating and taking over territory is what human beings have done throughout history. The Celts taking over Britain from whoever was there before, the Angles and Saxons moving into Britain after the Romans left, the Franks taking over Gaul and changing it to France, the ethic Russians taking over Siberia after 1500 (same time period as the settlement of the Americas). And the Native American tribes themselves did not originate in the Americas--they migrated over from Siberia themselves, so long ago they had forgotten it.
Except for Antarctica, there is not a spot on the globe that has not changed hands multiple times. One illustration is the Mexican War which was a collision between 3 Empires (US, Mexico, Comancheria) with 3 more (Britain, France and Spain) lurking just offshore. Spain had controlled Mexico just 25 years before and France would do so 15 years in the future. The British as was their custom settled for financial control. The Comanches proved to be a more difficult opponent than the Mexicans with final suppression only coming after 30 years of conflict after the Mexican War was over.
Whgat a great post! Thank you. I only wish children could hear this side of the story as they go through their education.
Thanks!
No matter what old world people "discovered" the new - be it Africans, Moslems, Chinese, or Europeans - the natives of the new world were doomed by the old world diseases. No one intended it, and no one could have stopped it
Precisely so. Tragic, but inevitable.
Well, to steal a line from Hillary Clinton during a senate hearing, “what the hell does it matter” the bottomline is that no longer has any relevance to the present. Now I’m no Hillary fan by far, but the point is there is so much navel gazing over the past which leftists use to try to advance their agenda by imposing a false guilt as they do with slavery. They are so self righteous and sanctimonious as if they could have done better back then. That’s called presentism. I’m not going to let them rewrite history. I’m celebrating Columbus Day for all the good that it represents. Let’s face it, everyone who has ever existed has been a depraved wretch according to scripture. So, let’s do what is right today based on a transcendent moral code, not someone’s woke idealism. If you constantly live in the past you’re going to lose a future which we are on the verge of doing as the Left manipulate us into a dystopian hellscape.
Our government gave the Native 🇺🇸 the big ol finger. Address the fact that we gave them blankets to keep them warm were tainted with Small Pox. Hummm
"We"? You mean the British? Also, see here; https://allthatsinteresting.com/smallpox-blankets#:~:text=Though%20the%20story%20of%20the%20blankets%20infected%20with,deliberately%20spread%20disease%20among%20Indigenous%20Americans%20in%201763.
I mean American.
Look I'm not arguing your views only saying Don't trust your government, the REAL TRUTH IS IN HISTORY AND THAT TRUTH SHOULD NEVER BE FORGOTEN. OTHERWISE WE ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT. Here in America we are facing Hitler all over again because folks refuse to believe the Holocaust ever happened.
The real truth is in history?
Which history? Everyone writing about history does so from a different perspective.
Which is why we study it. Some historians use better sources than others. Some historians bring different perspectives to the same sources. We read as many of them as possible so that we can draw better and better conclusions, while also doing original research in the present (the article, for example, cites the use of LIDAR to discover lost cities no one knew existed).
This is, not coincidentally, the argument for the freedom of speech. Everyone writing or speaking about politics does so from a different perspective too. But not everyone is right, and not everyone who is right has the complete picture. This is precisely why government censorship is so utterly pernicious and must be opposed. The free market of ideas is far safer, however chaotic, than the stultifying hand of one inevitably corrupted point of view.
Well said, so to be clear, read your Bible,in it is the answer you seek. God Bless
Cortes begged for peace and got it. He freed the oppressed tribes from Montezuma. Cortes couldn’t have conquered all of Mexico if Mexicans hadn’t supplied their armies to do it. The difference was, Cortes didn’t eat his prisoners…
Exactly. Cortes ended one of the most evil regimes in human history, to the great benefit of the vast majority of natives. The fact that many of those same people died later of European diseases is no more Cortes's fault than the Black Death is the fault of the Chinese.
Bernal Diaz Del Castillo vol. 1,2. An eye witness account of the conquest of Mexico. From all five voyages to the coast of Yucatán from Cuba to Mexico City. Absolutely stunning achievement. The courage it took. The diplomacy. Cortes destroyed their idols as condition one, even when it cost lives. Condition 2, forbid cannibalism. Bernal saw it all before his eyes.
A meticulously researched book about Columbus (author: Hinckley), researched in the archives in Barcelona, spells out the concern Columbus had for the native people he encountered. He tried mightily to stop other Europeans from abusing and enslaving the native population, but he was slandered in his own time by those persons, just as relentlessly as he is being slandered now.
Indeed. The Pope was also quick to (properly) resolve the issue of whether the Indians were humans or some other species and thus entitled (or not) to full human rights. No question, no one had the level of human rights that we do today, but the Pope quickly extended those to the discovered peoples. That may seem obvious to us, but the Spanish didn't have DNA testing or Wikipedia, and the Pope was a long way away.
Just a few decades later, another Pope strongly opposed the enslavement of native peoples in a Papal Bull, and the Spanish government adopted that as policy. The conquistadors did not always follow that policy, but government officials don't always follow the law today either.
The problem remains as stated in the article: before much time had passed at all, the Indians started dying en masse. No one understood why: they didn't have the germ theory of disease or any modern understanding of the immune system. But it wouldn't have mattered: there was nothing they could have done, and nothing they could have done to prevent it from happening, any more than the Chinese could have prevented Europeans from getting the Black Death. It's just one of the truly great tragedies of history.
I'm all for Columbus Day but...an Irish monk discovered what we call America a thousand years before him and Brendan wrote that he and his fellow brethren went where others had gone before.
I'm all for Columbus Day but...an Irish monk discovered what we call America a thousand years before him and Brendan wrote that he and his fellow brethren went where others had gone before.
What about stories of settlers giving infected blankets to Indians?
There is some evidence that this may have happened (as the article says "at least once", which means there's no good evidence of more than once). But the bigger point is that this was something that happened (if it happened) in the 18th Century, which is to say, centuries after disease swept through the hemisphere.
https://www.history.com/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets
Great post.Thank you.
Given the widespread cannibalism and human sacrifice custom in South America before Cortes, perhaps we should ask those asserting genocide, is that tradition the one you prefer? Culture is usually pre fixe, not a la carte.